Western States called the “World Championships”
Special considerations are considered to those who…and I quote from the website…”greatly enhance the competitive aspect of the race”.
For all those fast guys that didn’t get in to what MUC calls the World Championship then what is it really?
It’s the end of a series of races to win a Schwag Bag, (my simple opinion). Yes it is the most competitive 100 in the US…no doubt, but only because it is one of the originals and has a great history. I certainly deserves to be listed as a great race, but not a “World Championship” if all runners who have a legitimate chance of running top 10 can’t run it. And where is the prize money for the “World Championship”?
Prize money is not a Schwag Bag!
This has certainly shifted my plans for 2008. I was hoping to run it once this year to challenge the over 40 record, as I will be “Over the Hill” in a few days…making Western a downhill race for me. This post might ban me from the race, and I don’t want that. We have to wonder where Ultrarunning is going with so-called Championships, with only a handful of the best runners allowed to race for it. Come on Forest Service, let the runners run! And thanks to he who inspired me to write this.
Wahsatchspeedgoat
Karl Meltzer
December 4th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
Karl,
I would have loved to see you, Andy Jones-Wilkins, and Tommy Nielsen face off against each other as well as Twiet’s 17:17 out at States next year. It would have been a master’s race for the ages… not that you guys wouldn’t be competing for the top overall spots. Likewise, with the applicants it had, WS 2008 could have easily been the most competitive trail 100 ever in North America. (I don’t know enough about TdMB to take that claim intercontinental.) Regardless of how the WS lottery turned out, I hope that for both your sake and for the ultrarunning community in general, you and the other top dogs find another venue for a top notch showdown in 2008.
-Bryon
December 4th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
Karl,
Couldn’t agree more (see the comment I just left on Tony’s blog).
If WS is not going to let in the top runners, it doesn’t deserve its exalted status as a “World Championship”.
So, the only question is, “If WS isn’t going to let the fast guys in, where should the fast guys go?”
-Jasper
December 4th, 2007 at 1:55 pm
You, Tony K. and Leigh S. most certainly deserved to be among the ’special considerations (SC)’. You’re all seasoned, competitive, ultra veterans with wins and course records at distances ranging from 50K to 100 miles within the last two years.
December 4th, 2007 at 2:01 pm
Honestly, that is crazy…. and I was feeling sorry for myself that they didn’t let me in ….. M#11 last year. But that fact that you, Krupicka, and Jasper aren’t in is crazy. So, who exactly did they let in because of merit??? Crazy.
Rod Bien
December 4th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
World Championships for lotto winners only! Is Kyle in?
December 4th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
I agree…what the hell with “special considerations” and the fastest boys in country didn’t get in??!! Who exactly is considered for “enhancing the competition”?
December 4th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Maybe it is time to tighten up the entry requirements. This would for sure reduce the number of people who are in the pot. Most people don’t run Boston for the first time, they work really hard to qualify. Running three 50 miles under 11 hours in a year really is not that difficult. A 100m should be mandatory under a certain time. Of course you would have to have different requirements for various age groups.
December 4th, 2007 at 2:43 pm
Enough about that old use-to-be race in CA and on to the finest rock festival east of the MS. Massanutten 100 filled in less than 2 hours this moring. Entrants: http://www.vhtrc.org/mmt/entrants.htm
December 4th, 2007 at 2:54 pm
Preachin to the choir, spot on Goats! All legit in every way. I think WS has to re-evaluate their mission statement, because it is obviously one that does not reflect the current condition. It is what it is I guess. Anyways, on to another race.
December 4th, 2007 at 3:01 pm
Kyle will be in the Hardrock guessing game, he probably has a better chance there, it would be a shame if he doesn’t get in. If Jurek runs, he’ll make it a great race, like last year, as long as noone takes a nap.
I knew I missed someone, Rod Bien is also not in. A new race has to be created with our own rules.
It would have been a great masters race, and a great year to go after Twiets time, Oh well, one less guy (myself) to push the pace. -Karl
December 5th, 2007 at 7:34 am
Several reasonable opinions have been expressed on recent blogs.
Please consider the following.
Elite athletes. Only 14 of the top 20 are returning from 2007. Only 12 of the 18 MUC slots (of the three races held so far have been used). Why not use the 12 unused elite slots for elite athletes. This does not take away any slots from the lottery and it lets the Board have discretion to include a more competitive, deeper field and they decide who makes the cut. (Also, any remaining unused MUC slots can be used for the same purpose. i.e., hopefully Nikki wins the remaining three MUC races and then 3 more elite athletes could be allowed in.) For the record, Montrail bought the right to these slots and while it may be most appropriate to only designate 100 milers as qualifiers, Montrail bought the right to decide.
More elite athletes. One of the best suggestions on one blog was the institute qualifying times (at 100 milers only) that if met would gain automatic entry. This can be a complicated formula involving altitude gain, difficulty of course, etc… or as simply as running under 16 hrs on a flat course or under 19 hours on a course with more than 20,000 ft of elevation gain. Maybe different numbers would be more appropriate, but you get the idea.
Two-time losers. Prior to the lottery, it was announced there were 116 two time losers automatically entered in 2008. Clearly, this was not the horrible catastrophe many had predicted with over 1300 names in the bucket. However, there is potential for this to get out of hand. Once again, the Board has the discretion to say that X number of slots, say 100 slots, are dedicated to two-time losers and 25 slots are designated for a special lottery for 3-time losers. Eventually, this may have to be extended to 4-time, 5-time, etc…, but if it is not capped at some point, people will have to enter the lottery a good 3-5 years before they can run the event.
There were 190 names drawn during the lottery. A lottery is fair to everyone. Regardless of qualifying standards to get in the race (which many may argue are too fast/slow), a lottery is fair to each and every person…regardless of age, speed, and home country.
Currently, there are 371 names on the list and in a month or so when a revised list is posted, anyone who has been added is either an aid station designee (25 possible), an MUC top three winner (18 possible), or any of an undisclosed amount of “sponsor” designations”. Beyond this and you can form your own opinion of fairness and or competitiveness.
Clearly, the event is at a cross roads. The Board must decide whether they want to maintain a race with a world class field or whether they want a Montrail Cup-only “World Championship” which may exclude many of the most competitive long distance trail runners in the world. There are many solutions to the current problem, but without some compromise from each side everyone will remain unhappy.
December 5th, 2007 at 9:11 am
P. Justice stated that a lottery is fair for every one. Really? It is only fair if they put it into a hat and pull it out w/o so much as a care of who is in the pot. If there is special consideration given for people who didn’t make it for 2 years, then it is not fair to everyone… The only fair way is to open registration and let people register. When it fills, it fills…
World Championships? Are you kidding me? There isn’t even any prize money! More like US Champs for bust luck in the lottery.
The only way to get WS100 to change thier thinking is for all the top runners to not even enter. The ultrarunning community is very small and close. If all the top runners decided not to run, then the “World Championships” would be really bad.
Someone needs to put on a 100M race somewhere that would be a true world championships. Invite some of the best runners from Europe, Asia, and SA to the event. Offer prize money. No entry restritions. etc… This would be tough to do w/o sponsors, but if someone decided to do it, I bet WS100 would take notice…
Jst some random thoughts from an injured runner…
December 5th, 2007 at 9:43 am
Derek,
That is exactly what I was thinking !
WSG
December 5th, 2007 at 9:57 am
“Someone needs to put on a 100M race somewhere that would be a true world championships.” I agree (I guess Tahoe Rim is doing this via USATF but, and not to stir anyone up, no one really seems to take USATF 100-mile trail championships very serisouly)…
The notion that WS should for some reason be just this race escapes me. I ran WS as my 2nd 100 miler. It’s a great experience but it very definitely is not the best course I’ve run in terms of terrain, beauty, etc. Personally, I’d rather run Wasatch or even Cascade Crest.
December 5th, 2007 at 10:15 am
about 5 years ago Matt Carpenter boycotted the Pikes Peak Marathon, because of prize money and no competition, well, there’s prize money now. You are right Derek, going on strike is the next step. Although we know they won’t but the fastest runners in Western this year, have to suck it up and say sorry, because the race is not allowing the fastest to run, none of us will run. The only problem is the 300 bucks they threw down, and can’t get back. That kind of hurts at this point. But of course, that buckle, so I was told costs the race 250 bucks.Perhaps the 100 or so that won’t start because of whatever reason, should get there money back, or at least some of it. I suppose all the runners who don’t start and don’t get at least part of it back are paying for that $250 buckle. I’d love to sell all my buckles for 250 bucks, I have about 40……hmmmmm, that’s 10 grand. OK, I’ll sell them and donate it to prize money for the real Championship. Maybe someday, we’ll have a multi-loop course at Snowbird, and have a real race. -wahsatchspeedgoat
December 5th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
WSG,
The Western States trails are open to anyone at anytime. At the risk of getting blacklisted by the race which may not matter if they don’t let you in in the first place, why not get a group of ten of your fastest friends and run the course in reverse from Auburn to Squaw Valley (more uphill for you) in honor of the backwards nature of the entry process for elites. It is a boycott and I would bet money you could do sub 18 hours which would put you in the top ten for the downhill direction in any year of WS’s history.
The only logistical problems are the River crossing, getting water to the high country and navigating the high country at night if you have not seen the course. And, if you want to put icing on the cake, why not do this training run on Thursday, June 26th.
The boycott is a great idea, and maybe AC100 should be considered for the unofficial “fast guys” championship since the race is open to anyone, does not fill to capacity, is not held at elevation (Wasatch excludes a top notch performance from some sea level elites who don’t have the option of altitude training), yet has enough climbing and descending to challenge everyone’s legs. Also, from what I’ve read about the AC course record, it is as tough if not tougher than the WS record (still held by Mike Morton).
December 5th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
I believe we have now found the perfect idea. AC is a great course for it, but I really think a course that everyone puts in input, and we have the race between 3000-8000′ elevation it could be a fair test. Wasatch won’t let in an elite field anyway, I know that for sure. Will AC? don’t know, he would have to let them in at the end, not in freakin’ January.
December 5th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
Please excuse my slowness with reading comprehension, but where doe the World Championships stuff come in? I went to the link. It leads to the WSER Web site. I tried the Montrail link. On the Montrail Ultra Cup I found, in part,:
“Series prizes and Ultra Cup champions crowned at the 2008 Western States Endurance Run on June 29th, 2008.”
Maybe I am overlooking something obvious (I do that a lot)–any help would be appreciated.
All the rest is interesting reading.
John M.
December 5th, 2007 at 3:12 pm
Oops, a few links later:
http://ultracup.montrail.com/race-schedule/western-states-100-mile/
… 34th Annual Western States 100 (Ultra Cup World Championship Race)
and after enough clicking and reading comes enough verbiage a person could interpret the marketing stuff to be a world championship–sort of.
Sorry for the bother.
John M.
December 5th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
Hey I’ve already boycotted finishing WS100 twice; does that count?
December 5th, 2007 at 3:54 pm
Just want to throw one thing in the mix. It hasn’t been mentioned before and it affects the potential growth of Western and the idea of another race run on the same course (forwards or backwards). Western’s course runs through the Granite Chief Wilderness Area (Western has been “grandfathered” in, because the race was there before the Wilderness was designated). Because of this fact, Western will have a very hard time increasing race participant numbers and replicating the race at any other time of the year. The Training Weekend doesn’t even run through this portion of the course. Political bureaucracy straight up. Check up on the rules for organized events in wilderness areas, if you don’t know what I’m talking about. Western probably will not get granted a wavier that allows them to increase the cap of runners in the race. And, yes, you could have an “unorganized World Championship Race” on the same course, but be prepared for the repercussions.
December 5th, 2007 at 6:52 pm
I could get excited about AC100…except, of course, for Leadville and Wasatch bracketing it (I’m not Karl!).
But really, I think that’s what the top runners need to do: pick a race and everyone go. MAYBE even boycott Western States…nothing like a little rabble-rousing…the whole MUC thing is really kind of aggravating me. Like Jasper has said elsewhere, 2008 might be too late, but certainly this (everyone going to a different race) should be a consideration for ‘09.
December 5th, 2007 at 7:56 pm
You guys might think I’m crazy, but Cascade Crest is an amazing course and only 50 minutes from downtown Seattle. I imagine the RD would be tickled to death to have an elite field, which could be just the shot in the arm the race needs. Elevation hovers between 5,000 and 6,000 feet. The 10a start is a little odd and it ain’t the easiest race to crew (per my wife), but otherwise this could be a great destination. Run at the end of August, however, runners might be a little beat up from the summer race season…
December 5th, 2007 at 10:09 pm
“Although we know they won’t but the fastest runners in Western this year, have to suck it up and say sorry, because the race is not allowing the fastest to run, none of us will run.”
So Karl, if you would have gotten in via the the lottery, would you really boycott it?
December 6th, 2007 at 8:20 am
Would I boycott it? Very tough call, but if everyone did it, I would have to jump in and boycott too. When Matt did that at Pikes Peak, we all just said, oh, well, Matt’s not running, but what he did do is convince the RD’s to make a new elite status rule, where every runner who considered themselves…fast, they would send a resume and hope for the best. I think PIkes allowed 20 spots for this, enough for a great race.
2009 is the year to make a race of our own and go get it. Cascade Crest could be the one as the elevation is not too high for some, the time of year, and it’s not this year. Alot of runners make plans by now, so we must coordinate this for 2009. Contact the CC director and let’s make it happen. He/she has to let in everyone that is elite, even 2 days before the event…if it’s feasible. Boycott? Lots of other races out there, and we all know Western is by no means the best course, just the best history. Next year is the year to boycott, no fast guys enter at all. Perhaps noone runs the MUC so they can’t even give the prizes away.
December 6th, 2007 at 8:57 am
This is all very exciting for a BOPer like myself…if everyone starts boycotting all over the place, I could win an ultra!
December 6th, 2007 at 9:32 am
the one part of all this that seems odd to me is where is the “you have to let me in immediately before” coming from? i don’t understand why, if all the elites decided on a race and approached the RD about it, they (elites) couldn’t also agree to decide for sure if they were running, say, a month or two before. presumably, if the elites were serious about running a really competitive race, they’d have to have decided in that time frame anyway. saying that an RD has to let elites in up until a day or two before seems overly burdensome on the RD.
mmrj (nowhere near elite)
December 6th, 2007 at 10:20 am
if the WS buckle is worth 250$ than Twiet should buy an island and set up a championship 100mile course.
-goat legs are in the mail
December 6th, 2007 at 10:23 am
Midpacker here - totally agree that ANY race that considers itself a “race” (whether a “championship” or not) should make sure anybody who’s got a reasonable chance of competing for the win, and signs up on time, is allowed to race. Start with that, and then figure out a lottery, ticket system, first-come-first-serve, or whatever. I doubt any of us non-elites will mind losing 15 or 20 open spots to allow *all* the speedsters in.
I’ll look for Karl’s buckles on e-bay. I may have to scratch out “Hardrock” and sratch in “1-k Tot Trot”, and give it to my daughter for x-mas.
December 6th, 2007 at 12:56 pm
Another arm raised high for Cascade Crest ‘09.
does anyone know the current entry process to that race? is there a maximum allowed and does it generally fill up? I think it might be best to pick a race that doesn’t generally fill up and just plan on it, somewhat quietly, rather than trying to contact RD’s about specifically organizing entry rules for an elite field. this way there’s not extra expectations put on the RD and no changes to entry for the rest of the field. anytime you allow for automatic entry based on previous performance there’s going to be some point of past experience at which you stop letting people in, and there will always be people that don’t get let in that feel they should have been. in this sense i think it’s better to just pick a race that everyone can get into.
damn, it’s so exciting just thinking about it… a real “championship” race. now that would be exciting.
December 6th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
Two days before a race is silly, I was just yacking. It would be a nightmare for people to ask to get in two days out. I think at Pikes peak the window was a month, that is very reasonable. Athletes would submit a resume up until about a month out, then within a week, they would know if they are in, I think this a fair deal for everyone. What is tough, ( and maybe this mostly applies to me personally), as I have been runnning 8 100 milers a year for three years. It’s hard to throw down 2-6 entry fees all at once. This also only applies to races, such as Western, once you are accepted there is a no refund policy, which brings back the waiting list thing, money is returned to the applicant if someone is waitng and will pay. it’s a revolving circle really, And nearly impossible to solve.
No Hardrock buckles, just medals-christmas tree ornaments!
December 6th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
I don’t know about any world championships, and last I heard, there were not too many races in the states offering prize money. There seem to be plenty of races taking money–:] with high entry fees and lots of runners.
At the 2007 CCUM we had only 41 runners. The top 10 win prize money and lots of corn…..Don’t laugh, well, ok, go ahead and laugh….Down here in the Canyon country of Mexico corn costs quite a lot more that up in the states….! No thanks to the ethanol gas boom…..and other corporate factors, but, The reason I am writing is to invite Wasatch Speed goats–Cabros velocidads, to come on down and run with us if ya get a wild hair. This years run is March 2, 2008 and promices to be a good one as always, and even better!
No corporate sponsors here—only KORIMA: a circle of sharing. WE offer up $5,000 dollars in Prize money, too. Of course we would hope that the cash circles back to the Tarahumara people…..And we get to honor them and ourselves, a cultural exchange of trail running party animals.
Andale, and check us out and what we are up to…
http://caballoblanco.com
Word is that Scott Jurek–El Venado, and Jenn Shelton–La Brujita, will be returning to defend their titles…..Also coming is Will Harlan, invited Josh B, Kyle and Anton…..Vamos a ver! And Arnulfo will be looking to regain his title…..The question is: Quien es Mas Loco?
Caballo BLanco de La Sierra Madre
December 6th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
Hey Everyone -
I’m curious about a couple of things:
(1) Does anybody put stock in the USATF championship — or are there still hang-ups with the requirement that you need to be a paying member of USATF (and a U.S. citizen) to go home with the moolah?
(2) On that note, how about Tahoe Rim Trail 100? It’s the 2008 USATF 100-Mile Championship. I ran the 50 last year. It’s gorgeous. Also, the race is easily accessible by way of Reno or Sacramento, doesn’t involve a ton of high altitude (by Leadville standards), and is very crew friendly. It also involves a good mix of trails — some technical singletrack, some cruiser sections. It’s a good test.
As much as I love anarchy, I don’t think the Bandit-Backwards-Western-States-100 is the solution. It’s a cool idea, but doesn’t take us a step toward legitimacy.
Off to the treadmill for hill training,
- Garett “Doing speedwork now in hopes of cracking Top 10 at a major 100 in 2008″ Graubins
December 6th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
I think you guys are on to something. Having a real championship 100 miler would be great. I agree that Cascade Crest would be a good race to use. Another one that has never filled is The Bear 100. I guess the downside to The Bear is the elevation issue. It is also way late in the year.
December 6th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
This thought after just seeing John Medinger declare to the entire Ultra List that the WS100 is and will be the “de facto 100 mile championshiop”:
I’m not only down with boycotting WS, I’ll go a step further and “refund” 1 elite runner’s entry fee from the 2008 race if they bag it! I’m sure we could get a few others to do so as well. Mark it down as your yearly charitable donation…..Let the rabble rousing begin!
December 6th, 2007 at 5:06 pm
Wow, Paul, I’m impressed! Right now, I’m seriously considering not doing any MUC races; at this point I’d rather do SJ50 or Bighorn 100 instead of WS.
As for 2009, I’m definitely in for either TRT or CCC100 (or, why not AC?). Heck, I could probably even be convinced this year if enough fast dudes showed up (although, I still have unresolved goals at LT).
December 6th, 2007 at 5:37 pm
Every year the Tour de France route is announced and typically the route is not as hard or as beautiful as Tour of Italy. And then you hear it’s the riders, the field, that make the race great, not the route, which I think is true. WS has been like the TdF. WS has history but I think it’s the runners that make a great race. All the “pros” (like Karl) get together and you guys, and ladies, can have a great race, period, whether it be at CC or AC, or where-ever. Not only am I a runner, but I’m a fan the way most guys are fans of the NFL/MLB/NBA, and want to see the best compete and was dissapointed we missed the chance to see that at WS 2007. The way MMT sold out this year compared to last year and then the year before, seems like you could even start a new race on brutal course and it would fill up no problem, the harder the better, and make people earn their way in. Personally, I would rather have to earn my way straight-up with results to get into a race once it becomes so popular, rather than the pure luck of a lottery. I think this calls for some Bob Marley for the drive home from work. A little rebel music.
December 6th, 2007 at 5:57 pm
Caballo Blanco -
Would you please email me direct?
graubins@yahoo.com
Thank you.
- Garett
December 6th, 2007 at 8:44 pm
The Selection Process for WS100 should be a little more like the selection process for The Ironman World Championships in KONA.
WS100 needs to be an ELITE race only allowing people worthy enough, to run in the actual race.
(None of this 3rd time and your in B.S.)
You must qualify for the KONA Ironman by placing high at an official qualifying race. We need to establish a list of qualifying 100 mile races and the top 5 men and women from those races would receive an automatic berth to run in WS100. (or something similar)
There would still be a lottery, just like KONA, but only 10% of the runners would be from the lottery or so…
The people who were lucky enough to win the few lottery slots, would be honored to run in WS100 because of how difficult it would be to get in. The lottery would give the average person, who met a time goal for a 100 mile race, lets say under 24 hours or so… an opportunity to run with the greatest runners of the year.
Qualifying for WS100 just like a triathlete qualifies for KONA is the best approach to take in terms of saving this so called championship race and restoring its (Boston Marathon of UD Running) status.
You would have to EARN, your spot by proving that you are one of the best racers from the past year. This also would prevent runners from saving themselves for racing just WS100.
My idea is the best because the true elite athletes that have actually placed high in a 100 mile race, get to run, and the people who have simply “Qualified-Making a time goal, (not the best actual 100 mile runners) will still race, but only 10% of the field will be made up of these less than worthy (still worthy) runners (Lottery Winners)
-Rick-
December 6th, 2007 at 10:06 pm
Baaaaahhh!!
come to New England in November… Baaaahhh!!!
Hey Karl… we all know you’re the original Granite Man. No need to prove anything to anyone.
December 6th, 2007 at 10:24 pm
Hmmm… tough call. I have run/finished WS 6 times under the following entry protocol:
1998 - International resident
2002 - Lottery
2003 - Lottery/ Special Consideration (not sure)
2004 - Top ten previous year
2005 - Top ten previosu year
2006 - Top ten previous year; ridiculously goodlooking (:))
So why have I run the race so many times fully knowing that I was never a contender to win? It’s a classic race. I considered it a priviledge to run. It is beautiful. It incorporates multiple facets of running/trail running… mountains, single track, fire roads, HEAT, road, etc.
So now I’m a two time lottery loser. I’m perfectly fine with this and shed no tears. I hold no animosity or expectations of being privledged enough to run (didn’t even fill out the special consideration application section this year) as an international resident or ’special consideation’ or top ten as in years past.
But it greatly dissapoints me that there was blatant snubbing of top potentiial competiitors for 2008. Western States to me was about the beauty, comraderie and the compwetition. Throughout it’s history the race has toyed with prize money and elite competition. The race course has been tweaked for the better to add more trail and beauty. The entry requirements have been tweaked as well to ensure that top-shelf competition made it ‘the race’ to watch. All this was done with minimal fanfare and ultimately increased the popularity of the race. It has always welcomed and treated all-comers and eltie competitors with equal consideration.
For ten years I have participated as both a runner, competitor (although that is to be disputed) and fan, all with the utmost repect for a first-rate, top-notch race that always lived up to it’s name and billing. With no disrespect to the top mens and women’s field’s this year, the race will not hold the same competitive element that it has in the past for me. There are five men and women to watch on race day. Come on. This has to be the lowest, on the edge of your seat, ‘dark horse’, ‘elite’, ‘vetran’ Western States competition in ten years.
With all that vented if I got in this year I would run, albeit much less competitive in years past but that’s ok… it wouldn’t hold the same feeling for me. I guess that is good in a way. I can enjoy more of the beauty and still high five Grrodie, Tweit, and all the volunteers with a smile on my face.
Will soembody please call me out if I’m wrong here.
.
December 6th, 2007 at 10:32 pm
Paul,
Awesome idea. For the benefit of those who are not on the ultra list, could you paste in Medinger’s quote? Or, maybe he’ll print it in an article in the magazine he bought recently and now publishes.
I still think for this movement to get off the ground, 2008 is much better than 2009. This would give the boycotting runners a stronger incentive to follow through with it. And, Scotte, here’s hoping there’s a ton of fans like us who’d be willing to contribute $25 - $50 to a prize purse to see all of this happen. It would take many fans to make it worthwhile for the elites of the sport.
With all due respect to the CC, which I’m sure is a beautiful course, the one aspect AC has is the history and the very hard to touch course record. Why not switch the location every year, AC one year, CC the next. Neither has a lottery, and neither has been bought by a shoe company, yet.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:39 am
the bear 100 could be great for ‘08 because it’s late enough in the season that it shouldn’t interfere as much with other race plans. i guess AC pretty much fits as well. i’ve already been thinking pretty seriously about running the bear this year and if even a handful of elite runners were planning to do so i’d be much more inclined to be there. for someone like me (new to ultras and hoping to work up to being an “elite” runner - or at least being as fast as i can be) there is nothing that makes a race more appealing than the prospect of being able to race against some of the best… especially if i can do so in a low key setting without having to go through a crazy lottery process.
December 7th, 2007 at 11:26 am
Guys - I’ve touched base with the RD (his contact info: charliecrissman@gmail.com) about the possibility of CCC 2009. Feel free to reach out to him as well. I ran the race in 2006 and it is a legitimately challenging mountain 100 (without the altitude). The race really has it all and proximity to Seattle is a huge plus. I think the field might be capped at 100. Maybe Charlie would be willing to set aside 25 spots or so. Race generally does not fill up. I don’t have as many 100s on the resume as most of you, but I have run WS, MMT and, most recently Wasatch, and promise that the CCC course is on par with our expectations (assuming here that runners would in fact want a tough mountain race). http://www.cascadecrest100.com/
December 7th, 2007 at 11:46 am
We all seem to agree that races are more fun when there is good competition at the top, and I hope this thread really opens the eyes of some RDs. But stupid race admission policies are only part of the problem. Insufficient field sizes and number of races also figures heavily. This affects ALL of us–not just elite runners. Trailrunners aren’t really getting a fair shake from many forest service districts. We turn out in large numbers for service work projects, we open trails/routes early in the season, we often repair trails on the spur-of-the moment, and a fair number of us participate in search and rescue, but a typical trail race is capped (by the Forest Service district) at somewhere between 100 and 350 runners. An average ATV does 50 times as much damage to a trail as a runner/hiker. So a 100 mile ultra does less damage than 7 ATVs out for a weekend.
You get the idea… We need to band together better to lobby the Forest Service to make it easier to get ultra events approved and to increase the field sizes. But we can also make our voice heard as individuals. Forest Service districts have no budget for trail work any more–we’re it! So the next time you’re hunting around for a service project to satisfy your ultra requirement, call several districts. Ask them what they will do for you/us if you agree to do a project on their district. Lets make the Forest Service districts start competing to accommodate US!!!
December 7th, 2007 at 1:55 pm
In regards to general entry, the worse case would be if RDs required on site registration for the following year. In the sport of triathlon this has been a policy at Ironman Canada for years. No doubt other IM events will adopt this policy in future. This policy does not apply to elites however.
How many people would be willing to travel across the country just to watch and then sign up (a year in advance) for WS, Bighorn, Massanutten, etc.?
December 7th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
As requested, here is the quote from John Medinger’s email to the ultralist (note, since the ultralist is basically “public,” I don’t feel like I’m violating anyone’s trust here; if I am, I apologize in advance):
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December 7th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
As requested, here is the quote from John Medinger’s email to the ultralist (note, since the ultralist is basically “public,” I don’t feel like I’m violating anyone’s trust here; if I am, I apologize in advance):
“A championship event would be a worthy competition if enough sponsorship could be generated so that all top runners who want to run (including those on limited budgets) could attend. Whether it is necessary or not depends on your interest in seeing all the elite runners in one place, or whether the egalitarian nature of the sport is an overriding issue for you.
Meantime, despite protests to the contrary, Western States serves as the *de facto* championship. The top 10 men and women finishers from the previous year are automatics (not subject to the lottery) and the top 3 men and women in the six Montrail Ultra Cup races are also granted automatic spots. Those six races are White River 50, Mountain Masochist 50, JFK 50 (already contested) and Way Too Cool 50K, American River 50, and Miwok 100K. So for all the hot shots who might complain about not having gotten through the lottery, all they have to do is finish in the top 3 at Cool, AR or Miwok.
The elite field at Western States won’t include everyone (some top runners simply did not apply, others might not be able to afford the travel), but it will almost surely be the deepest talent pool of any of the 100-milers.”
December 7th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
I thought just occurred to me. Joe said he was entered under “special consideration” back in the day, long before the Montrail sponsorship. Montrail probably says, “why let these elites in under special consideration now?” if they are truly elite then they will have no problem taking one of the 3 spots in the MUC series thus boosting publicity of all the other races.
So essentially they had 20 spots for special consideration back in the day, which is now gobbled up by the MUC winners
Montrail is the one who won the lottery here.
December 7th, 2007 at 11:32 pm
Elites need to lean on their sponsors and race organizers more in order to see better sponsorships, secure race entry and prize money. I can’t blame them, since sponsorships in the sport still seem like a tenuous thing. I think the mentality that trail running, and ultra running in particular, is a niche and essentially amateur sport still pervades, and many athletes may be unwilling to press the subject.
This is wrong. Races are selling out like never before. Shoe manufacturers are selling a lot of trail running shoes, and it’s not just to trail runners. Next to basketball shoes, the most frequent type of athletic shoe I see people wearing around is trail runners.
Many of these people probably don’t buy a shoe because Karl kicked butt wearing them, but because of looks. They’re the SUV of footwear. Who cares. Ultrarunning is the heart and soul of the sport and, just like any similar product, that’s where the marketing is rooted. It’s up to the sponsors to promote their athletes along with their product. The two will sell. I think the larger companies who make trail runners have especially been getting off cheaply. This is also true of large races, such as the UTMB (btw, this race really looks like the ‘world championship’, not WS).
While I was typing this out, I was watching the sports on the evening news and they interviewed a guy who made $5 million riding cutting horses in the rodeo?!
Instead of busting on DK, who has done a good job of getting all manner of support from TNF, the elites (read SJ) need to work their own sponsors, or even ditch their current sponsor for one who better produces. With all the training, traveling, and competing many of the elites do, it sort of looks like a job. And race buckles aren’t going to fill up your 401K when you’re done.
As far as a 100 mile championship goes, the whole idea of finding some undersubscribed race and having the elites go mano y mano sounds good, but does nothing to advance the sport and its best athletes. The ‘championship’ is going to gravitate to the race(s) that end up offering the best prize money and visibility. Until such time that attracting top talent or a championship is that important to runners and sponsors, this isn’t going to happen. Is this changing, I think yes. The real impetus will have to come from the elites themselves and the others will have to take up Karls lead.
December 8th, 2007 at 10:35 am
I’m not sure what the ultralist response is to John Medinger’s post (I get the digest 4 days after the fact) and while I understand the point he is making the problem with the races that MUC has chosen is they are not a good predictor for WS success. Some of the guys who qualified like Crowther, DNF’d at WS. I think Freeman DNF’d as well. Converesly, a guy like Jurek or Karl doesn’t perform near as well at 50 miles as they do in 100 mile races and may not necessarily qualify via a MUC race even if they could be a threat to win WS. To me its like running a half-marathon to determine who the marathon Olympic team would be.
December 10th, 2007 at 8:12 am
Chris Russell makes the best point of all at the end. Some of us are better at the 100 mile distance, some of us best at 50Km. But more often than not, the 100 miles specialist should be able to qualify for 100 by running 100. No short qualifiers. All have to say now, is I hope this opens up the eyes of some RD’s and the Ultrarunning world in general. “Ultrarunning is for everyone, and everyone likes to watch (or hear about) the fast guy’s run. Let’m in. And don’t go hiking on you’re ATV
December 10th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Regarding the earlier posts about a backwards WS100. There are ultrarunners from the Sacramento, and Bay area putting together a backwards run this year. It will be supoprted through friends, etc. If you check the trail running fourm on the runnersworld.com site you’ll find out more.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:59 pm
You are right on “Ultra running is for everyone”. Everyone loves a heroic feat, and to follow their heros…. but you can’t have heros without the average Joe who strives to run like a hero. For the love of the trails we all (both those who are fast and those just under the cut off) want to run desired courses. Hmmm, more races. WS elite, WS regular?
I agree with an elite class championship, anything in Canada? Shake off WS “world championships” Speed Goat….. not worth the fuss. I hate to compare, but, the Super Bowl claims to be a “world championship” however they do not invite the world.
Prior posts referenced the Tour de France……… who would want trail running to be plagued with steroids and controversy? Look to the future, use your WS frustration to improve the sport of trail running.
December 11th, 2007 at 8:35 am
Average Jane. I really don’t care where there is a “World Championship” or even if there is one. I tend to do things I want to and not worry about others. As far as getting in WS, I am not all that upset about it. It’s all about it being called the World Championships. That was very much a Montrail mistake calling it that. It was NOT the RD. Montrail thinks they are the shit in this sport, but in reality they are on a downslide. They started the whole sponsor thing, and it was great for the sport.
You are very right with the NFL calling it the World Championship, we all know it is not. Only (and others) with Futbol (soccer) could there actually be a World Championship, all teams come from around the world. That would be the definition. A “World Championship” for Ultrarunning would have to be a race with everyone (at least most) from around the Globe.
In reference to the Tour De France. Mt. Blanc is the Tour de France of Ultrarunning, it is NOT plagued with drugs, nor did last year’s top 3 use performing enhancing drugs…yes they were drug-tested afterward, they all passed. If you ever get a chance to run this race, you will see what I mean when I say Tour De France. Running a killer mountain section, then dropping into a quant little town to see 2000 people cheering for you is intense. They hang out for the whole field, not just the elites. These fans look at the front of the pack like the back, we are all in this together. It is highly unlikely this sport will ever see steroids or performing enhancing drugs. Siimply because there is no money. Wouldn’t it be stupid to spend all this cash on EPO, or blood doping to win a Cowbell, or a Buckle, or a trophy? The TDF is 100 years old and they are racing for milions, not cowbells. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t support performance enhancing drugs, but c’mon this sport will not go there in my lifetime, nor your’s. US Championship would be a better definition, that is where Montrail screwed up. -Wahsatchspeedgoat
December 11th, 2007 at 9:41 am
Average Jane, what do you mean by “Prior posts referenced the Tour de France……… who would want trail running to be plagued with steroids and controversy?”
December 11th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
Sorry Avg. Jane, I read your comment as you were referring to Tour du Mont Blanc so, but you weren´t so no need to clarify for me what you meant
Agree with Karl, Tour du Mont Blance is awesome.
P.s. Regarding the World Championship, I think it should be held one year in Europe and the next in USA for few years and then it can move to other continents when this has been done for some time. Europe and USA account for 90% of ultra runners. So who is going to take care of this Championship on an International level, IAU? http://iau.org.tw/
Maybe, what is needed for 2008 is an All-Star race, a race that would guarantee a spot for all those who finish in the top 5 (or 10-15) places in all the 100´s in USA, Europe + plus some places for average Joe´s. It would then be followed by a World Championship race in 2009 either in Europe or USA. It´s hard to set up a WC race in 2008 with such a short notice (set up rules, select race et.c). Montrails WS100 World Championship was maybe just a decision to start this somewhere, someplace.
December 11th, 2007 at 7:47 pm
Completely agree with you on the US vs WC…. and I understand current trail running isn’t plagued with performance enhancing drugs…just hope to stay that way
As for the Tour du Mont Blanc, that was super cool. I hope you get those crafty Euros next year.
January 9th, 2008 at 11:50 am
There has to room for all of us, fast and slow, on the incredible Western States trail, which is in my back yard, and I’m on those trails a lot, but I’d like to do it in a race setting once, and I finally got in, and am going to make the very best of it, because apparently it’s my time. But I could not agree more that the the WS system has to change to bring in more fast runners. The current system encourages people to do whatever it takes to squeak a sub-11 50 just to get the name in the hat. People who have done 50s before but are completely out of training can still do that. And then maybe they barely train for WS. That’s wrong. But they can’t put their name in the hat unless they keep doing the 50s and they can’t minimize the odds of the lottery without putting their name in the hat every year.
So one idea is just to bag the multiple-time loser idea altogether. I met a guy who got his named pulled five years in a row. There are probably more extreme cases. And there would be people who would never get their names pulled. Maybe just let the luck fall where it may. OK, that’s too rough? Then scale it back a bit. What about different lottery formats in different years? For example, only 50 lottery slots (or even fewer) one year and more the next year then back to 50. Or what about having a lottery only every other or third year and having age-based qualifying standards during the non-lottery years? There doesn’t have to be a lottery every year.
One thing seems very clear to me: There should be automatics based on finishing times at other races. Have different qualifying times for different distances, and give the most challenging times to the shortest distances (for example, your 50 would have to be 10 or 15 percent faster than your 100 in your age group on the same course). It wouldn’t be easy to set up these standards, but it would not be impossible.
I have done some fairly deep statistical analysis of finishing and split times at Western States. Numbers are just a hobby and it helps me prepare. One thing quite clear and interesting: it is not at all a Bell Curve out there. The peak of the curve is way toward the right (slower runners) and the right side of the curve never does flatten out to the axis. Translation: the fastest runners are much, much faster than the slower runners are slow, which is maybe another way of saying that the current entry formula permits too many slow runners (like me) to be out there at one time. There race has lost its balance point (peak of the curve in the middle). I don’t want to do WS every year. I don’t even want to do a 100 every year. I have lots of other things going on in my life that excite me. But there should be opportunity to do it occasionally (every few or five years, maybe) for the slower runners.
So my support is with finding a way to get more fast runners and fewer slow runners into the race at one time. And you elite cats should know that there are slow dogs who really support you. And we can do things before we come to boycotting. I really like the post about placing pressure on the RDs and the Boards.